104 replies to this topic

[Monosynapsis]

I was worried it was a bit tasteless, sorry if I upset anyone......

Hach, tont vorry, who doznt like zolutions.

[rob]

[...]

Music from these countries now is moving towards Harmony - and yes, maybe something new and different will be born, and that should be allowed to exist - who knows what can come, and how beautiful it can be? -BUT the point is AWARENESS. I think those early Western composers were VERY aware of intonation and the compromises they were making for exactly what benefits. But my feeling today is that musicians the world over are NOT choosing 12ET with any awareness at all - - - as was stated, most musicians in India and everywhere have no idea at all what 12ET is.

So in the course of this discussion - out of frustration and anger, there has been a lot of 12ET bashing and Rob has pointed out well that we ought to remember the great things 12ET has in fact contributed.

I see where you are coming from and understand. But, I don't think there is that much to worry about. Popular music pretty much always sucks. Sometimes more and sometimes less. When it sucks less, it's usually because it's fun for some reason. But, unless it's music from our own youth, this music that sucks, less and more, always fades into irrelevance. When we look back at other eras, the music we listen to from them is the stuff that was made by the people who were thinking.

There are certainly going to be smart musicians in every area being invaded by 12-TET that are going to be thinking about how to bring these influences into their music and yet retain what they consider to be the grounding aspects of their musical traditions. For me, these are going to be the people to listen for.

At the same time, there are always traditionalists. There are still people in Europe that make and play instruments from pretty much any era of western classical and popular music. So, this music tends to continue to exist almost as a snap shot.

I can really get where you are coming from on the issue of instrument builders. Right now, I'd love to be able to walk into a music shop and be able to bang on some instruments that weren't 12-TET. Hell, I've had a hard time locating anyone that wasn't terrified of putting in 19-TET on my guitar. So, I'm going to have to cough up the cash and buy the tools and figure out how to do it myself. All with the possibility that after I've done it, I'm likely to decide that I really want to try 24 instead.

So, I think that it is a valid fear that traditional instruments are going to be harder to find. Again though, there are going to be builders that keep going with them. Just like it is still possible to get Analog synths in the west. You have to pay the big money or DIY it. But, you can get one if you want.

On the other side of the instrument issue is the observation that if a music fails to adapt and incorporate new instruments that are rising in popularity, it stagnates and begins to die. Western classical ignored the sax and guitar and lost it's position as the dominate art music to jazz. Jazz in it's turn failed (for the most part) to bring in distortion, solid body guitars, and synths and has sunk to the point where I think that it sells less well than classical now. At these critical points,I think you pretty much have to choose to change or stagnate. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground

[rob]

[...]

Though I used the past tense in the synopsis below, implying that we'd completed it, we were all getting increasingly busy at the time with various Web jobs and never did follow through. (My housemate Brian get heavily involved as a beta tester for MetaCreations Bryce 3D among other things.) The rendering times for the audio files, on the hardware available to us at the time (first and second generation Powermacs) were ridiculously long, so progress was slow. (Overnight for a minute or two of output.) But we did get as far as implementing the tuning tables and the dynamic interpolation between them.

[...]

You reminded me of this link. I had to run around searching for it. There's other interesting stuff on his site too.

[Paul Shigihara]

On the other side of the instrument issue is the observation that if a music fails to adapt and incorporate new instruments that are rising in popularity, it stagnates and begins to die..........
.......At these critical points,I think you pretty much have to choose to change or stagnate.
There doesn't seem to be a middle ground

thank you !

these new popular instruments are the laptop, Reason4, Ableton Live7 etc.
and they work great with fretless/fretted guitars...

btw... the NI AkoustikPiano has presets for all the tunings in the history of the western keyboards...

great stuff !

[Ed DeGenaro]

On the other side of the instrument issue is the observation that if a music fails to adapt and incorporate new instruments that are rising in popularity, it stagnates and begins to die..........
.......At these critical points,I think you pretty much have to choose to change or stagnate.
There doesn't seem to be a middle ground

thank you !

these new popular instruments are the laptop, Reason4, Ableton Live7 etc.
and they work great with fretless/fretted guitars...

btw... the NI AkoustikPiano has presets for all the tunings in the history of the western keyboards...

great stuff !

This how it always has been...remember when sax ruled the world...or guitar for that matter. Things change. End of story. So moaning about change isn't going to-uhem-change this.

[Edward Powell]

So for a bit of fun I propose a poll, let's humanise the buggers:-

vote for your preference:-

a) beautiful, tuned, harmonious ancient wisdom of magical just and eastern tunings

b) cantankerous, festering, nazist, evil, scumbag nasty stain of 12TET

c) Or like, whatever, Dudes, whatever I feel like after my morning dump....

My conciousness is attuned to vote for b) in these scalar flavors:

major
natural minor
harmonic major and minor
melodic minor
jazz minor
Lydian minor
Hungarian major, minor and gypsy
Neopolitan major and minor
blues and blues major
Arabian scale
Balinese scale
Byzantine
Persian
East Indian Purvi
"Oriental"
Double Harmonic
Enigmatic
"Overtone"
Eight Tone Spanish
Promethius
Gagaku (Rittsu Sen Pou)
Gagaku (Ryo Sen Pou)
Zokugaku (You Sen Pou)
In Sen Pou
Okinawa
Chromatic
Diminished (Whole-Half and Half-Whole)
Whole Tone
Diminished and Leading whole tone
Symmetrical and Six-Tone Symmetrical

all of which can be derived from notes taken from the 12TET. I am hopeful if I live long enough of someday having these really under my belt, crazy and impossible a goal as that seems to me. I don't think I'll really ever get very knowledgeable about all the wonderful things under a).

Actually, all of these CAN NOT be derived from 12ET and this is exactly the reason why I keep knocking people over the head with this topic. 12ET has become so deeply engrained in us that we (very good musicians themselves) really don't completely understand the issue.

Just to take one of the above examples--- let's take ''Arabian scale'' (not to mention that there are hundreds of them ) ---You are probably refering to Hijaz. Taken in the 12 ET world as C Dflat E F G AFlat Bflat C.... but in fact, play it the way THEY play it you must raise the Dflat one comma (1/9 of a tone), and the E must be one comma more flat than JUST (which means about 2 commas or more flatter than 12ET).

And this is just one example.

If you want these scales and modes to sound the way they were intended you CAN NOT simply play them in 12ET ---- FAR FROM IT!

(all due respect Brad I know you were jabbin' a bit

[Edward Powell]

On the other side of the instrument issue is the observation that if a music fails to adapt and incorporate new instruments that are rising in popularity, it stagnates and begins to die. Western classical ignored the sax and guitar and lost it's position as the dominate art music to jazz. Jazz in it's turn failed (for the most part) to bring in distortion, solid body guitars, and synths and has sunk to the point where I think that it sells less well than classical now. At these critical points,I think you pretty much have to choose to change or stagnate. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground

...this is a brilliant point! As much as it worries me to see young Carnatic musicians with strats and lespauls - on the other hand it is great to see they are on stage playing CARNATIC music and not some Western garage rock or something... let's hope some really clever ones can figure out how to resovle the intonation issues.

[Newbie Brad]

So for a bit of fun I propose a poll, let's humanise the buggers:-

vote for your preference:-

a) beautiful, tuned, harmonious ancient wisdom of magical just and eastern tunings

b) cantankerous, festering, nazist, evil, scumbag nasty stain of 12TET

c) Or like, whatever, Dudes, whatever I feel like after my morning dump....

My conciousness is attuned to vote for b) in these scalar flavors:

major
natural minor
harmonic major and minor
melodic minor
jazz minor
Lydian minor
Hungarian major, minor and gypsy
Neopolitan major and minor
blues and blues major
Arabian scale
Balinese scale
Byzantine
Persian
East Indian Purvi
"Oriental"
Double Harmonic
Enigmatic
"Overtone"
Eight Tone Spanish
Promethius
Gagaku (Rittsu Sen Pou)
Gagaku (Ryo Sen Pou)
Zokugaku (You Sen Pou)
In Sen Pou
Okinawa
Chromatic
Diminished (Whole-Half and Half-Whole)
Whole Tone
Diminished and Leading whole tone
Symmetrical and Six-Tone Symmetrical

all of which can be derived from notes taken from the 12TET. I am hopeful if I live long enough of someday having these really under my belt, crazy and impossible a goal as that seems to me. I don't think I'll really ever get very knowledgeable about all the wonderful things under a).

Actually, all of these CAN NOT be derived from 12ET and this is exactly the reason why I keep knocking people over the head with this topic. 12ET has become so deeply engrained in us that we (very good musicians themselves) really don't completely understand the issue.

Just to take one of the above examples--- let's take ''Arabian scale'' (not to mention that there are hundreds of them ) ---You are probably refering to Hijaz. Taken in the 12 ET world as C Dflat E F G AFlat Bflat C.... but in fact, play it the way THEY play it you must raise the Dflat one comma (1/9 of a tone), and the E must be one comma more flat than JUST (which means about 2 commas or more flatter than 12ET).

And this is just one example.

If you want these scales and modes to sound the way they were intended you CAN NOT simply play them in 12ET ---- FAR FROM IT!

(all due respect Brad I know you were jabbin' a bit

All due respect to you as well Ed! I wasn't kidding at all. The scales I mentioned are presented in the book Mel Bay's Complete Guitar Scale Dictionary, which I enjoy working through. I've been taking scales I learn from the book to the stage for a few years.

[Edward Powell]

This how it always has been...remember when sax ruled the world...or guitar for that matter. Things change. End of story. So moaning about change isn't going to-uhem-change this.

hmmm.... i don't think i hear anyone moaning about change. In fact just the opposite. If a guy like me, in what I am saying looks like I am moaning about change - then what I am saying is being misunderstood --- cuz it is exactly CHANGE that I would like to see happen!

It is NOT a question of change or no change, it is a question of WHAT change!

Of course, Ed, I hear what you are saying and I agree ...we can't control anything, things are going to go the way they go whether we like it or not! ---a certain amount of gripping can be construction as a way to stimulate awareness - but after that better just to let go of it and get on with making the best music we can!

[Edward Powell]

All due respect to you as well Ed! I wasn't kidding at all. The scales I mentioned are presented in the book Mel Bay's Complete Guitar Scale Dictionary, which I enjoy working through. I've been taking scales I learn from the book to the stage for a few years.

but seriously... let's take many Persian scales for example. Have you actually listened to one of them for 30 seconds played by a Persian player, or are you willing to take Mel Bay as the final word on the subject (BIG MISTAKE ) ...just take 2 minutes and find a traditional PERSIAN TAR player on youtube, and then try to reproduce his scales on a 12ET guitar without bending... IT'S 100% IMPOSSIBLE!

[Ed DeGenaro]

This how it always has been...remember when sax ruled the world...or guitar for that matter. Things change. End of story. So moaning about change isn't going to-uhem-change this.

hmmm.... i don't think i hear anyone moaning about change. In fact just the opposite. If a guy like me, in what I am saying looks like I am moaning about change - then what I am saying is being misunderstood --- cuz it is exactly CHANGE that I would like to see happen!

It is NOT a question of change or no change, it is a question of WHAT change!

Of course, Ed, I hear what you are saying and I agree ...we can't control anything, things are going to go the way they go whether we like it or not! ---a certain amount of gripping can be construction as a way to stimulate awareness - but after that better just to let go of it and get on with making the best music we can!

Actually I did not think you're moaning for or about change.

[Edward Powell]

[/quote]
Actually I did not think you're moaning for or about change.
[/quote]

I WAS actually - and therefore my 'guilt' conscience ---i do so much appreciate this forum as a way to bounce my thoughts around and clarify them. Sometimes I think I know the last word on something, and then someone writes something that really makes me think again.... THANKS all!

[motel resident]

A couple of reference points about me first.

1) I think the Concierto de Aranjuez is one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever composed/played.

2) I hate Barbershop. It bores me into dark restless sleeps.

So?

I think that frets are critical to the timbre of the guitar, especially acoustic guitars. This is saying nothing against a fretless guitar. It's just that a fretless guitar isn't a guitar. A trombone is closer to being a trumpet than a fretless is to being a guitar. And, a trombone ain't a trumpet. (I also really like trombones and trumpets.)

Satie, Debussy, and Rodrigo were not eating at McDonalds and drinking Coke. They also weren't deaf to 12-TET. I think it's pretty clear, especially with Debussy, that they were exploiting the moods inherent in 12-TET to produce what I think is undeniable beauty.

I think before looking at non-western cultures and wondering why they are adopting 12-TET it servers as a good reference point to look at some of us that come from a western cultural background and ask why we are looking at just, and non-12 ET's. We've been sitting in our mainly 12-ET universe for a much shorter time than other cultures have been sitting in whatever their own local universe happens to be. Does it make any sense for us to be restless and expect others to not be as well?

The guitar, with frets in 12-ET, is a stunningly powerful instrument. So much so that it has invaded every area of western music. Even into places that make no sense like one guitar against an orchestra. The results, like with Rodrigo, are often simply wonderful. When the guitar moves into new area's, cultural or geographic, it gets infused with new life such as what happened in America and North Africa and Brazil. I expect that the same will happen as the guitar, with frets in 12-ET, moves into new cultures. I can't see any point in doing anything except enjoying the results.

So, no, let's not "F... THE FRETS." 'Cause frets are f...ing awesome. They allow music to be produced that is wonderful and not possible without them. On the other hand, I hope and expect that people will keep taking out some frets too.

I agree completely in regards to western music, and simultaneously agree with the fret haters in regards to eastern music where I hope 12TET doesn't take over.
I categorically and automatically disagree any time someone determines some type of music is "wrong" for any reason, and there is no entire genre or type of music that should be held up as superior or inferior--there are only superior and inferior examples within type and genre, and there is stuff for each of us that we will probably never really get.

[gazmungus]

I categorically and automatically disagree any time someone determines some type of music is "wrong" for any reason,

That's the one...

I have that exact same programming about most things - it often gets me into trouble....