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#91 Bapman

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Posted 12 April 2008 - 05:22 AM

Gunnar, I would view it up from the E root rather then looking at it as say Eb dorian over E.
To me it be starting from the second degree... b9-9-3-b5-5-6-mj7 other then the major 7 this is something that will live quite happily over any alter dominant, heck dominant for that matter. And the major 7 as a passing tone is fine any day.



Yes that's true
but if you really want it to be pan/poly tonal
and intonate the Eb lydian or dorian over the E in just not eq. temp
not as an E altered scale/chord without the E but as 2 separate modes
that's the real problem with only sticking with whats " normal" overtones
should you adjust the just or just stttttick it out
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#92 Bapman

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Posted 12 April 2008 - 08:12 AM

Another problem with basing the intonation only on overtones
is as i understand it ,
string instruments or even separate strings differ in overtones
( most fretted and fretless guitaristst have encountered a string that won't tune , right )
to the extent that the octaves will be located differently on individual strings Hz wise and as said before , pipes , halfclosed pipes , crotales , cymbals , drums Etc etc has different overtones and therefor a different octave Hz wise
add to that psycoacoustic , as stated about the freenote guitar
that we are programmed with what something is supposed to sound like and
that changes over time and place both in our inner and outer life
I might be wrong though :rolleyes: :unsure:
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#93 Bapman

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Posted 12 April 2008 - 08:21 AM

Add to that in recording,mixing and mastering classical music i've encountered
vocalist that wants there pitch to be tuned up Q a bit to high in comparison with
the other instruments, to get a special timbre or quality in the voice ,
( same with violinists BTW )
sometimes playing around with the wrong formants on an instrument gives the same effect but the other way
it feels to high or low in pitch but is in " reality " correct.


So in my view all tuning based on whatever is OK
as long as someone enjoys it or can make a statement with it.
well it's ok even if that's not the case either.


:rolleyes:
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#94 Edward Powell

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Posted 12 April 2008 - 09:09 AM

BTW, my favorite Deep Purple albums are "Book of Taliesyn," their 2nd, and "Deep Purple," the 3rd. Great songwriting, you can really see where the classical influence in rock got started, these guys were/are great musicians. And, just got "Moving Waves," by Focus, another group with a lot of classical elements, and also superb musicians...Hstick


Focus! I love Jan Ackerman and the way he used to take minor pentatonic scales and make modes out of them all over the place!
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#95 Chilly Willy

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Posted 12 April 2008 - 09:12 AM

On the other side of the instrument issue is the observation that if a music fails to adapt and incorporate new instruments that are rising in popularity, it stagnates and begins to die..........
.......At these critical points,I think you pretty much have to choose to change or stagnate.
There doesn't seem to be a middle ground


thank you !

these new popular instruments are the laptop, Reason4, Ableton Live7 etc.
and they work great with fretless/fretted guitars...

btw... the NI AkoustikPiano has presets for all the tunings in the history of the western keyboards...

great stuff !

This how it always has been...remember when sax ruled the world...or guitar for that matter. Things change. End of story. So moaning about change isn't going to-uhem-change this.


Everything changes except change, (Plato)

#96 Kai

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Posted 12 April 2008 - 03:06 PM

Another problem with basing the intonation only on overtones
is as i understand it ,
string instruments or even separate strings differ in overtones
( most fretted and fretless guitaristst have encountered a string that won't tune , right )
to the extent that the octaves will be located differently on individual strings Hz wise and as said before , pipes , halfclosed pipes , crotales , cymbals , drums Etc etc has different overtones and therefor a different octave Hz wise
add to that psycoacoustic , as stated about the freenote guitar
that we are programmed with what something is supposed to sound like and
that changes over time and place both in our inner and outer life
I might be wrong though :rolleyes: :unsure:


Piano tuners have run into the problems with inharmonic partials for centuries now.
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#97 motel resident

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Posted 12 April 2008 - 05:09 PM

Huh? Maybe not on guitar all the time, but off the top of my head...the main riff in say Woman From Tokyo has the sus to major 3rd thing in it.


Sorry Ed, I was being facetious.

#98 rob

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Posted 12 April 2008 - 07:01 PM

This link has a little java applet that lets you interactively explore setting different intervals to play based on the dissonance curve for sounds generated from inharmonic partials using FM synthesis. It's kinda fun to play with.

#99 motel resident

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 01:47 AM

it's the rhythm that's been perverted instead of the intonation


Since I typed that, I've realized that the "slightly squeezed 8th notes that aren't swung enough to be swing" that I've tried to describe to people should be called "microbeats". Now drummers will still have no idea what I'm talking about.

#100 rob

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 04:57 AM

it's the rhythm that's been perverted instead of the intonation


Since I typed that, I've realized that the "slightly squeezed 8th notes that aren't swung enough to be swing" that I've tried to describe to people should be called "microbeats". Now drummers will still have no idea what I'm talking about.


Cool! I like it. But, are the Just microbeats or Equal Tempo microbeats?

#101 Bapman

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 08:25 AM

Totatallery UNJUST !
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#102 motel resident

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 04:21 AM

it's the rhythm that's been perverted instead of the intonation


Since I typed that, I've realized that the "slightly squeezed 8th notes that aren't swung enough to be swing" that I've tried to describe to people should be called "microbeats". Now drummers will still have no idea what I'm talking about.


Cool! I like it. But, are the Just microbeats or Equal Tempo microbeats?


Once I get that figured out, I'll be a little bit closer to the day that I levitate when I play.

#103 norumba

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:28 AM

Great discussion all...

I don't think that just versus ET is the important point in using a fretless instrument in modal music. Look at it this way. The music that is primarily harmonic in structure uses ET. The music that is primarily melodic in structure uses just. Huh? My guess is that singers, oud players, fretless guitarists, etc. that are playing in primarily melodic settings aren't limiting themselves to just intervals. Instead, they are using the freedom of being fretless to stretch and compress intervals to cause tension in their performances. Just vs. ET isn' the important point here. Fretted vs. fretless is.


Good point; i also find myself subconsiously adjusting thirds etc to a less sharp interval than ET.

To me , the discussion is almost moot, because we 're dealing with the complications in harmony that arise in ET vs non-ET, and for me,
What's held my interest for a long time in Indian and Middle eastern music, particularly vocal music, isnt harmony, or even the fixed points of a melodic line, but the journey in between the notes: the arc of a well placed meend, a well defined set of gamaks. I studied with Joe Maneri, who introduced me to his 72 note /per octave system, and that paved my way for a good appreciation of the possibilities of looking at sound as a continuum.

In my own work, If im using harmony at all its usually seconds ( flatted or not),7ths or 9ths. With the fretless i can spread even these close intervals slowly apart or together to create little microtensions and releases. I dont think of that as harmony, but as varying degrees of textural density. Thats not to say i wont use a little western harmony if i need to, but what Im doing doesnt often call for it.

In short, i dont worry about it much :whistling:

interesting points way back on Carnatic e guitar players and modern filmi songs. True enough, you wont here a modern bollywood song in something like a properly sruti'd Darbari these days, but that doesnt mean it couldnt happen -- filmi composers will just need to rethink how they approach the issue of modern arrangements and orchestration. From what little Turkish pop Ive heard - and Edward Powell, perhaps you can expand on this -- they seem to be able to keep maqams intact throughout a modern arrangement, or else float the vocal line on top of it regardless :rolleyes: Ive heard a few BW filmi songs take that kind of approach, but not many.

great points about the partials and the critical band etc... all of that forms the basis of for Western classical orchestration ( if you were a comp. major you got that stuff), whether scientifically mapped or not . - knowing that if instruments x and y played a certain pitch or harmony together youd get a unique overtone mix different from either instrument by itself and different from instruments x and z. I remember reading that Varese actually worked and charted a lot of that out in terms of overtone series, but im not sure if thats true or not.
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#104 Guest_neil haverstick_*

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 02:25 PM

As a long time blues player, I totally agree about the subtle changes that occur in a pitch while one is playing...blues musicians are constantly messing with the pitch of their notes, depending on what they're feeling at the moment. I'm sure that's what happens in the music of many cultures that use modal structures as their basis...here's a nice quote from "The Music of the Arabs:" "Because the Arabian tone system is not tempered, the size of an interval can change during the presentation of a maqam..." nothing new there, especially for folks who play those styles of music, but for musicians that aren't familiar with those concepts, it's important to know.
Theory is theory; may not be fact in real musical practice. But, interval sizes certainly have deep meanings, and when one ventures outside the Western 12 tone scale, it's a vast and profound study, and can have a big effect on one's art...best...Hstick

#105 Edward Powell

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:02 PM

From what little Turkish pop Ive heard - and Edward Powell, perhaps you can expand on this -- they seem to be able to keep maqams intact throughout a modern arrangement, or else float the vocal line on top of it regardless :rolleyes: Ive heard a few BW filmi songs take that kind of approach, but not many.


there is so much going on musically it's a bit hard to generally make comments... also I am not listening much to Turkish pop, only stuff I encounter unavoidably in public (which is all the time).

I'm not sure if I would really say they really maintaining 'makam'... because to me 'real' makam means reasonably developed makam playing which involves many makams at once. I mean, if you only play ONE makam, you are NOT actually playing that makam! To properly play one makam you must include certain small modulations ('tastes') to other makams... this is mandatory - - - and larger developments into other makams.

but having said this, Turks are really masters at somehow managing to Harmonise their music. I had the pleasure of performing with a great modern Turkish rhythm section in Amsterdaam link...and playing a traditional song in Hicaz with them Harmonising under me, was such a beautiful feeling - - - I'm not totally sure how they manage it (and I never enquired because this is not the way I am personally interested in developing Turkish musical ideas), but they really know what they are doing. Turks in general are such incredibly cultured, skilled, and artistic people. They really do things on a high level over here - its the best kept secret around.
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